[Trombone-l] [c-m] "Gold Mine" of OLD Music

Wed Mar 22 16:47:26 CDT 2023

I would agree with Jim, whether or not they were good or bad, musically,
socially, at least in my opinion they were despicable and should not be
forgotten - but not performed, and remembered for what they really stood
for.
Art Triggs
914-819-8432
art at awtriggs.com
www.awtriggs.com

On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 4:19 PM James L Scott via Trombone-l <
trombone-l at trombonelist.org> wrote:

> Just to quickly respond to the original email without, hopefully, starting
> a big contentious discussion here -
>
> The Fillmore "trombone" pieces were all composed for Minstrel Shows where
> much of the entertainment centered around ridiculing people of African
> descent. Those shows were popular in the Jim Crow era when segregation was
> the rule of the land in much of the US and the stereotypes being portrayed
> in those shows was intended to preserve sentiment against people of color.
> Blackface featured prominently in those shows.
>
> For me, changing titles is a waste of time, because I know what the
> composer's intent was in writing those pieces, and I don't wish to
> participate in carrying on the tradition. I used to play "Lassus" as a
> trombone demo on children's concerts - not anymore. I don't feel bad about
> playing this music in the past, but I have more information and context at
> this point and have come to the conclusion that if even one person feels
> that I am disrespecting an entire race of people by performing it, then
> it's not for me.
>
> Fillmore wrote some marches, etc. with not only no objectionable titles,
> but also no connection to racist forms of entertainment. I wouldn't have an
> issue with playing some of those pieces. To me it's like humor - there are
> some old jokes that "wear well" to this day, but some that most of us would
> never repeat. Society evolves - I hope I have too.
>
> Jim Scott
> ________________________________
> From: Trombone-l <trombone-l-bounces at trombonelist.org> on behalf of
> Raymond Horton via Trombone-l <trombone-l at trombonelist.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2023 1:18 PM
> To: c-m at groups.io <c-m at groups.io>; List Trombone <
> trombone-l at trombonelist.org>
> Subject: Re: [Trombone-l] [c-m] "Gold Mine" of OLD Music
>
> [△EXTERNAL]
>
>
>
> *Fillmore was a notorious racist. * *There was a long chain of discussions
> about these pieces on trombone-l at trombonelist.org
> <trombone-l at trombonelist.org> several years back.  Some members felt they
> could be played with some context included, some wanted them banned
> outright.  *
>
> Henry Filmore's "Trombone Family":
>
>    - "Miss Trombone (A Slippery Rag)" (1908)
>    - "Teddy Trombone (A Brother to Miss Trombone)" (1911)
>    - "Lassus Trombone (The Cullud Valet to Miss Trombone)" (1915)
>
> *This one became the biggest "hit," despite the fact that it is usually
> played much faster than originally indicated, something like "A Slow Rag,"
> IIRC.  "Lassus" is short for molasses, as in "as slow as molasses in
> January."   *
>
>    - "Pahson Trombone (Lassus Trombone's 'Ole Man')" (1916)
>    - "Sally Trombone (Pahson Trombone's Eldest Gal Some Crow)" (1917) *If
>    it could be divorced from it's very racist origin, musically one of the
>    best.*
>    - "Slim Trombone (Sally Trombone's Cousin- the Jazzin' One Step Kid)"
>    (1918) *Ditto*
>    - "Mose Trombone (He's Slim Trombone's Buddy)" (1919)
>    - "Shoutin' Liza Trombone (Mose Trombone's Ah-finity)" (1920) (Also
>    known as "Hallelujah Trombone" for the quote from Handel's "Messiah"
>    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_Part_II#44>) *The second most
>    popular.*
>    - "Hot Trombone (He's Jes a Fren' ob Shoutin' Liza Trombone)" (1921)
>    - "Bones Trombone (He's Jes as Warm as Hot Trombone)" (1922)
>    - "Dusty Trombone" (1923)
>    - "Bull Trombone (A Cullud Toreador)" (1924)
>    - "Lucky Trombone" (1926)
>    - "Boss Trombone" (1929)
>    - "Ham Trombone" (1929)
>
>
> Raymond Horton
> Composer, Arranger
> Minister of Music, Edwardsville (IN) United Methodist Church
> Retired Bass Trombonist, Louisville Orchestra, 1971-2016
> Visit us at rayhortonmusic.com
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 2:52 PM David Miller <dpm39560 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi, C-M Friends,
> >
> >
> >
> > James Chesterton wrote (clipped):
> >
> > ===========================
> >
> > The Terre Haute Community Band has approximately seven hundred band
> > arrangements in our files awaiting processing into our active library.
> Most
> > of the pieces, which were gifted to us several years ago, are from the
> late
> > 1880's to 1950. Many of the Octavo pieces are VERY POLITICALLY INCORRECT
> > and not perform-able today
> >
> > ===========================
> >
> > It seems that many of these un-performable pieces will be in the public
> > domain, and I speculate the reason they are not performable has nothing
> to
> > do with the music, but more to do with the title or other text associated
> > with the piece.
> >
> >
> >
> > For these pieces, namely those in the public domain, which this year in
> > the U.S. includes all pieces published in 1927 or earlier, why don’t we
> > just re-engrave those pieces and give them a new name (title)?  We could
> > perhaps make a note on the inside front cover of the conductor’s score
> > acknowledging the source of the tune and what it was originally named,
> and
> > why we have renamed it in this edition.  Of course, we should acknowledge
> > the original composer right on the music itself.
> >
> >
> >
> > Didn’t Henry Fillmore write a passel of Trombone smears with titles that
> > would be somewhat inappropriate today? Most of them are still good music,
> > so if they are in the public domain, why not go ahead and
> re-engrave/rename
> > them? That way, we would have a big source of great music for us all to
> > play.
> >
> >
> >
> > If this becomes a thing, we should probably have a central clearing house
> > to (a) coordinate renamings and re-engravings, to make sure (b) there is
> no
> > duplication of effort or conflicts in re-namings. But we can discuss that
> > if the idea gains traction.
> >
> >
> >
> > Take care, all,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > *  David*
> > David P. Miller
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Business Founder
> > Mississippi Community Symphonic Bands, Inc.
> > www.mcsb.us<http://www.mcsb.us>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > Composer, Arranger, Publisher of Music for Concert Bands
> > Silver Clef Music Publishing, Inc.
> > www.SilverClefMusic.com<http://www.SilverClefMusic.com> <
> http://www.silverclefmusic.com/>
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
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